Vandal leaves message of hate on soldier's Jeep

War also brings out the best in people as well.

Your point being...?

The point being that those who do such a thing are likely under the cloak of BO/or the Dems in general. BO stated, no solider dies in vain. Meanwhile there are people that are GLAD when our soldiers die! There are people that are more interested in the death tally of the enemy, ah sorry, "freedom fighters," than our men and women.

The point being that actions such as these make BO's statement BS, like it or not.

The point being that our soldiers hear this when people under the BO cloak say, "Bush is a murderer," because THEY are the ones at the trigger.

The point being that the double talk "Support the Soldier" but not the duty he performs, doesn't work.

The point being it is a good guess that the person who dared write this filth believes, 'the war is lost,' 'the war is illegal,' that s/he is a proponent of peace . . .

I could be wrong, there is a possibility of that, I'll admit. Not likely though. This person is likely one who identifies with a Liberal, whether they vote or not.

Tell me, why is this okay when "baby's mama" garners such outrage?

People willingly join the military. People don't willingly choose to be born black in a racist society. The two are not comparable.

You're making a caricature of people that don't agree with you. Why are there half a million dead Iraqi civilians are dead, when there were no connections to 9/11 and no WMDs?

It is double-talk; that's why I think that people that willingly choose to join an imperialistic military that has historically been used for the purposes of power, profit, and posturing on behalf of the ruling class are ethically challenged or grossly misinformed. I don't want the troops to die. I want them to refuse to do things like torture people, kill civilians, or go to war with a nation for no legitimate reason.

Maxwell, I can't even begin to understand how you can arrive at such a twisted opinion. Your measuring stick of who deserves protection and who does not - does not hold up to critical examination. The problem with maintaining such a twisted measure is that some day it might come home and bite you. Take care.

Oh dude!

"Baby mama" being said to someone who is in fact a mama of a baby(ies) compared to the declaration that a soldier is a "murderer"? And you don't see anything absurd with finding one worthy of outrage and the other not? The comparison is to show the reaction level. There was pure outrage over "baby mama," by the left. But this story? Nope.

And your reply shows why.

I've a comparison for you. Look up the number of Iraqis dead under Saddam, and why. Then compare to the number under our conflict, and why. Our guys aren't out there mowing people down.

Those who have the luxury of living in peace, do so because there are men and women ready and willing to stand between you and any enemy.

If one believes in peace, they should shake the hand of the Soldier with gratitude.

You may have just changed my mind about compulsory service . . .

Juno Hera:

"Baby mama" being said to someone who is in fact a mama of a baby(ies)

You've heard of racism, right? It's a derogatory term for black women based on the racist stereotype that black women have lots of children with multiple men, none of whom they're in a relationship with at all / for very long. The only time the term is levied against white women is when they act in a stereotypically "black" manner. Calling Michelle Obama a "baby mama" was an intentionally racist remark.

Soldiers, on the other hand, kill people. It's in their job description. Those that aren't killing people, directly or indirectly, facilitate the killing of people by those soldiers that are behind the buttons or on the battlefield. Your suggestion is ludicrous, and does not stand up to the test of logic in any way, shape, or form.

Unless, of course, there's something immoral about being a black woman in the United States.

I've a comparison for you. Look up the number of Iraqis dead under Saddam, and why.

What about the part where we supported that monster, fully cognizant of what he was doing, much of which with our financial support? What about the part where we went into Iraq on fabricated evidence? Your point is not relevant to the discussion at hand. Stay on topic.

Our guys aren't out there mowing people down.

So all of those half-million dead Iraqi civilians died of natural causes? Last I checked, it was their job to kill people. Last I checked, there was a concept called "collateral damage."

Your assertions are not congruent with reality, they are not logical, and to call them relevant to the discussion at hand is a stretch.

savannahborn:

It's called education, critical thought, and objectivity.

Ah Maxwell, we have come to the end of our discussion. It is too one sided for me. I've had enough of your hiding behind presumed education, critical thought and objectivity. Were you trying to be funny? I would wish you a good day, but I think it would be in vain.

FYI: "baby-mama" is mainstreamed. And, Michelle referred to BO as her "baby's daddy."

I am not advocating the use of the term in the professional capacity which garnered the upheaval.

"Killing" being the job description via a war or combat situation is not the same as "Murder."

Your premise begins on the false pretense, of an "illegal" war.

My point is, the message painted on this vehicle is vile, and deserves outrage.

savannahborn: I'm sorry your ad hominem attack didn't work. Enjoy being passive-aggressive.

Juno: If you're suggesting that the Iraq war wasn't illegal, then we've got a problem. That problem being the distance between your perspective and reality. We went to war with Iraq on intentionally fabricated evidence. There were no ties to 9/11 and no weapons of mass destruction. The administration lied to a Congress still in shock from 9/11. We attacked without provocation on a series of lies. This is the truth of the matter. I'm not thrilled about it, myself. Personally, if we had to be there, I'd prefer we had something vaguely resembling a real justification for it, and Hussein's barbaric acts don't count, 'cause he was doing that with stuff he bought from us, or with money we gave him. We didn't care because we were pissed off at Iran for overthrowing our puppet dictator, and Iraq was at war with them.

The message being painted was immature and pointless. It was a jerk move. I'd rather see a recruitment center in a lower income neighborhood vandalized than the car of a kid that was a medic. All I'm saying is that the method of communicating that sentiment was problematic, but the content of the vandalism does make some sense. And really, I'm kind of blown away that some vandalism deserves outrage, but I don't see anybody giving a rat's ass about thousands of people starving in Haiti after getting hit with five hurricanes, or with the half-million Iraqi civilians killed as a result of the U.S. occupation, or with countless other things that are so much more important than some dude needing to clean some paint off of his car. There are far more important things going on than the childish expression of opinions that you don't dig.

Max has no credible evidence of anything to back up his claims. We've been over this before, Max. Too bad you weren't here. I'm just bored to distraction with it. You can find an amen chorus on Stacy Malbon or Nearing's seeds (or DailyKos and Moveon.org for that matter) if that's what your looking for...

Waynester: Are you @!$%#ing high? Bush himself has admitted that there were no ties. They showed it on Fox News. And the only weapons of mass destruction that were found were some white trucks driving around back in '03. I remember Colin Powell talking to the UN, showing them pictures of these trucks. Nothing was found. Powell resigned.

I'm looking for people that are more concerned with the pursuit of truth than dogmatic attachment to falsehoods.

Read this, all of it.

Oh, Max! I am so glad that you at least admit that it is a jerk move! But then you go and sanction vandalism! For shame.

Thank you, Waynester!

I'm just bored to distraction with it.

God, yes! Asked and answered, already.

Why? There are liberals and conservatives in both places (of course the ratios are different).

But your chances of being observed by some crazy redneck in a Dallas parking lot is pretty good.

About 30 years ago I was driving from Amarillo to Dallas and ran into a big traffic jam with numerous police cars. Some guy shot a state trooper and along comes this redneck in a pickup truck and pulls out his deer rifle from the back window and blows away the guy who shot the trooper.

crazy redneck

Please define.

crazy redneck
Please define.

Someone who will pull out a deer rifle and blow someone else away on the highway.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not REALLY criticizing considering the circumstances.

Back in the Nam (Viet Nam) these guys would be some of my best buddies because they're the ones I wanted to be near. Don't know if I'd want one living next to me though.

Don't know if I'd want one living next to me though.

I feel very differently.

There are those who would label my neighbors as such, and would mean it as a derogatory statement.

The idea that my neighbors would defend me and mine is a comfort.

Were you around after the Vietnam conflict? I know soldiers who had rotten vegetables thrown at them as they tried to find their way home.

Very young at the end. My father was active, as was my maternal-grandfather (3 war vet.) during that era. I've heard some first hand stories. My mother is retired Army, so I'm just a DOD kid. (then there's uncles, cousins, aunts, sister, my son is in AFROTC planing to join, my niece is in line for the Marines early enlistment, I even married an AF brat.)

It makes me want to scream.

I was born on an Air Force base in Savannah Georgia. My dad retired from the Air Force around the time I was married. My sister is married to an officer in the AF. My brother is now retired from the AF. My uncles were in the AF. My son was a Marine, and then he went into the Army (Don't ask me, I don't understand either). And it goes on and on... I had a professor once tell me he could always tell the military brats ( I never went to college, he was a friend). I knew there was something about you Juno.

Hee hee, grand-daddy went from Navy to Army . . . all about time away. Said time away helped to foil his first marriage.

I was born on Post in S. Alabama.

Got lots of family in Savannah, GA, btw.

By-n-large those who have chosen service to our nation through the military are the BEST people our nation has to offer. Denigrating this GI in such a fashion is a slap in the face, considering that his service has likely benefitted the jerk that audaciously scribbles this message . . . I hope they find this person.

Were you around after the Vietnam conflict? I know soldiers who had rotten vegetables thrown at them as they tried to find their way home.

I could deal with that. The worst part was in some parts of the country you couldn't get laid to save your life...and this was the 60's and 70's.

you couldn't get laid to save your life

K~ I don't know of any condition that would require getting laid as a life saving cure. Enlighten me please. We are here to learn, after-all.

K~ I don't know of any condition that would require getting laid as a life saving cure. Enlighten me please. We are here to learn, after-all.

I'm assuming you were never a 20 yo healthy male?

True.

I have known a few, though. : )

In what asshatter's world does this possibly make sense? The very people who make it possible for folks such as yourself to completely miss the point get treated like this and you say it makes sense? That is well and truly pathetic.

Ironic isn't it Waynster? Ole Maxwell needs to visit another country for a while, just to see what the real world is like.

How about logic instead of insults? Evidence instead of dismissal?

Because logic doesn't apply to BDS sufferers. I know, I've tried. It's a waste of time.

Maxwell, Anger is getting the best of me here. You cannot possibly be justifying the harassment of this soldier in this way. I might not agree with you on occasions, but I wouldn't go find your car and write ugly things on it. There is no excuse for this type of escalation and your argument doesn't deserve to be addressed logically. It was hate behavior, pure and simple.

I wouldn't vandalize your car, either. If the vandalism is such a big deal, then complain about how this dude has to get spray paint off of his car.

He willingly joined the armed forces of an imperialistic nation. Nobody forced him to join the military. His free choice. Pull out any U.S. history textbook and look at our military endeavors. Most of them were fought for power, profit, and posturing. Most of those we have used the military against have posed no real threat, when you cut through the propaganda. Case in point, there are half a million dead Iraqi civilians as a result of Hussein's involvement with 9/11 and cache of WMDs. Too bad neither of them are true.

You talk about the real world. In the real world, most people hate the U.S. because of its arrogance, imperialism, colonialism, racism, and air strikes. We meddle, we kill, we sabotage. If you look at the foreign policy of the U.S. without nationalism, if you look at it truthfully, objectively, there's a lot more than the Manifest Destiny and Freedom garbage that they shove down our throats.

your argument doesn't deserve to be addressed logically.

That is the stupidest god damned thing I've heard in at least two days. If you can't back up your claims with reason and evidence in the face of contrary opinions, then stay out of discourse altogether.

Do you deny that the spraying of his car constituted Hate behavior? How is that not reason or evidence? It was not an acceptable expression of opinion, and could escalate in numerous ways. If it happened to you, I don't think you would blow it off so readily.

No, I don't think it constitutes hate behavior. I think it's childish as all hell, but it's not hate.

If I became a mercenary for an imperialistic ruling class, either killing or assisting those who kill (largely non-white) people for power, profit, and posturing, I would be pissed about having had my car vandalized. Thing is, pretty much everybody in the military chose to be there. While not all people in the military are actively killing people, all of them are part of the bureaucratic machine that does kill people; they're moving parts in an organization. They're accomplices, so to speak. So, if I were to take leave of my ethics, I would simply be upset at a valid opinion being expressed on my car in spray paint.

To call this hate behavior is to appropriate the rhetoric of the legitimately disenfranchised and oppressed groups such as women, minorities, LGBT, and the disabled for the purposes of marginalizing those that would criticize the ruling class and their willing mercenaries. You want hate behavior? Look at rape, look at racial profiling, look at the brutal beating of gay men, look at the harassment of people with AIDS. Look at the troops torturing "sand n****s" and "towel heads." That's hate.

 Hate crimes (also known as bias motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her membership in a certain social group, usually defined by racial group, religion, sexual orientation, disability, ethnicity, nationality, age, gender, gender identity, or political affiliation.^[1]

^wikipedia

It's not a hate crime by definition.

While I disagree with Max that "most" of the wars the US has been involved in "were fought for power, profit, and posturing", "many" definately were including our current involvement in Iraq, I do agree with him that the US has grown to be viewed by many throughout the rest of the world as arrogant and imperilistic.  Max may disagree and that's cool.  We're suppose to be discussing the topic and that will involve some differences in opinions.

I agree with savannahborn that it wasn't an acceptable form to express opinion.  However if a sign had been planted in the ground beside the Jeep with the same statement, I would not feel the same way.  The Jeep was damage it will cost to repair and that is destruction of property/vandalism and is a crime thought arguably not a serious crime.  Could it escalate?  Perhaps.

So you each have points.  I've read alot of what Max writes for a while now and this is just his style.  He's certainly provocative.  But I think he has the best of intentions in most cases, has a unique perspective and he'll even agree with you if you can provide some facts, logic and reason though his standards for facts and logic are pretty high.  I'd encourage you both to continue this discussion even though you strongly disagree and are passionate about your positions.  It's a good discussion.

Juno said the following:

The point being that those who do such a thing are likely under the cloak of BO/or the Dems in general.

Juno that's an assumption at best.

Ja:  Yes, please note the word 'likely'.   Based on similar expressions expressed by those of the left.  

If not hate-- then what emotion do you think this expresses?

Anger, fear, frustration, outrage-I'm not saying the perpetrator doesn't hate soldiers as the emotions I listed could all lead to hate, they very well could but I somehow can't seem to believe that on a personal level.  However, it's not a hate crime there are strict definitions for that and "soldiers" or "military personal" are not protected classes under any hate crime laws that I am aware of.

Juno-I was just pointing it out.

I think it expresses a judgment on a person's actions, and the actions of the organization that they willingly participate in. By the logic put forth, it would be a hate crime to say that Republicans are sexists, even though GOP policy is consistently more in line with sexist beliefs than the purported GOP agenda of "family values."

JaRagga: I'll agree with everything you've said. Thanks for your objectivity and fair-mindedness.

np, takes work though at times I tell you.

You might be right Allen girl. You might be right.

I agree that you may be right, Allen Girl.

I would add, though, that most vehicles driven by GI's have stickers on them for military installation access.

That's right Juno! It's been a while, I forgot that little detail.

Yep, I can spot that sticker quick as can be since I had one for some time in my youth.